Saving Grace – The King Is Coming

By Jeremiah Holdsworth on November-21-2011 | Filed under Living Environment Homework Help.

Saving Grace – The King Is Coming
Score: 4/5Score: 4/5Score: 4/5Score: 4/5Score: 4/54
4.1 (28 votes)

Artist:  Dissertation Declaration.
Title:  The King Is Coming
Label:  Combien De Sous Partie Dans Une Dissertation.
Release Date:  11/22/2011
Reviewer:  Jeremiah Holdsworth


1.  The King Is Coming
2.  Shekinah
3.  The First Woe
4.  Cross Contamination
5.  Deathless
6.  Man Of Sorrows (The Funeral Dirge)
7.  The Eye Of The Storm Part III
8.  Habakkuk
9.  Kefirah
10.  Beware The Apostates
11.  Revelation 6
12.  With Lifted Eyes

I love music with a passion.  The way you can express yourself through the art of sound, is something that I’ve been amazed with, since I was a young boy.  Music can tug and pull at your emotions in ways that nothing else can.  Bach and Mozart, as well as the many other classical composers, became famous based on how their music engulfed the listener.  It allowed them to form their own experience, that showed unlimited bounds, captivating the imagination.  Today we have so many different styles of music, so there is at least one that a person likes.  I listen to all sorts of genres but I’m still waiting on that Black Metal/Polka/Hip-Hop release.

I’ve grown to be a pretty big fan of metalcore over the last several years.  As I was introduced to August Burns Red, As I Lay Dying, War Of Ages, etc…, I was amazed at the impressive musicianship that was displayed by those bands.  Lately I’ve grown tired of the genre, as not much has changed, and it has just gotten kinda boring.  I need metalcore to hook me and reel me back in.  I don’t want to have to fight it, I want to be reeled back in.

Saving Grace came my way and I was excited to be able to review their 3rd full-length “The King Is Coming”.  They hail from New Zealand featuring Nicholas Tautuhi on vocals, Vasely Spunov and George White on guitars, Mike Benson on bass, and Shaun Anderson on drums.  Spirit-filled metalcore filled with the good news, makes up the bands emphasis.  I thought their first two albums were great so I was hoping this would reaffirm my trust is great metalcore music.

“The King Is Coming” showcases people screaming in agony before plummeting into a breakdown with lyrics based on Romans 8:22.  What a way to start off an album!

“Shekinah” comes out the gate with fierce drumming and guitar playing.  The song leads you to believe it’s almost finished and then it keeps going for awhile longer.  The few change ups keeps it interesting and fresh.  Here’s some lyrics

Burn away the darkness of sin, fill these hands with seeds of truth.  Show the path and I will follow, let your Spirit lead me through

“The First Woe” is a straightforward blistering 2 minutes of melting your face with lyrics based on Revelation 9:1-12.

“Cross Contamination” keeps up the speed with brutal hardcore drumming and breakdowns.  More bold and honest lyrics

And through the bloodiest trials, new character is forged.  Though the war is won, the battle rages on.  His kingdom will be preached and so will His testimony.  The Gospel lives.

“Deathless” comes next and this song is far from that.  This song is one of the best of this genre that I’ve ever heard.  The fast and slow drumming, blastbeats, sweet harmonized guitar riffs through out, a spoken word part, and a 30 second plus epic guitar solo finished by a brutal breakdown proclaiming,

King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Eyes of fire… Deathless Conqueror.
King of Kings and Lord of Lords, with justice waging war He’s the Deathless Conqueror.
King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Faithful and True… Deathless Conqueror.
King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Word of God… Deathless Conqueror. King of Kings!

“Man Of Sorrows – The Funeral Dirge” is a slow song that kinda feels out of place on the album.  It’s not bad but it just feels weird and acts as an interlude to the uninspiring instrumental interlude of “The Eye Of The Storm Part III”.  I love instrumentals but I want something that’s going to stir my emotions and this doesn’t do it.

“Habakkuk” brings the brutal spirit-filled metalcore back on full display.  More great guitar riffs, blastbeats, and double bass kick pedals.  I love the lyrics throughout, especially these in the second half of the song

Heed his warning. Take heart for through
intercession, worry transforms to worship, fear turns to faith, terror becomes trust. Doubts resolved with hope and anguish melts into adoration.
Then the heart can rest in the surety that Christ is King, and patiently await His return.Come Lord Jesus! Emanuel!
Bring Your Glory! Bring Your Justice!

“Kefirah” has a very bold message as the band is calling out Universalism.  The lyrics really got to my spirit so I’ve listed them all below,

Hung from a tree, the face of all truth and compassion, broken and nailed. Bloodshed and death, the price that was paid, but your eyes are still veiled.
How can the truth of His words be so tarnished by lies? You were the target of snakes; now they cover your eyes.
This is a warning to all… “I never knew you” is not a metaphor. You want your perfect life; There must be compromise.
“You will know them by their fruits” well, this tree is fruitless, barren, rotted away. There is a place created for demons; there is a Hell believe Him He’s seen it.
There is a purpose for warnings of old; there is a war waging on for your soul.  “I never knew you” is not a metaphor.
The way, The Truth, The Life, He was the compromise. “There are many rooms” but your house is crumbling, falling, burning away.
See through the lies, beyond the black, blinded victim of unholy attack. No other name will snatch you from the fire, if there is another then Christ is a liar.
He is the gate; He paid the cost. The key to the Heavens was hung on a cross. He is the one mighty to save, conquering death as He walked from His grave.
Blood… Royal Blood… most precious blood, but you still want more…
King… Father God… most Holy Christ, truly I tell you He is coming back for His bride not a whore.
Universalism is a Lie!  Whilst there is breath in your lungs, pray for cleansing…

“Beware The Apostates” and “Revelation 6” are great songs that help wind down this album.  Pretty straight forward musically with more christian-themed lyrics.

“With Lifted Eyes” acts as the outro and has the same feel as “Man Of Sorrows”.  It’s slow and just doesn’t feel right with the mostly fast paced nature of the album.

Overall:  Saving Grace’s third album, “The King Is Coming”, filled my ears full of bleeding eardrums.  Songs range from amazing, to great, with a couple that fall short, including a boring instrumental.  I love the lyrics these gentlemen put to the songs as I prefer bold christian messages with the gospel intertwined.  Great music and messages equals a great album!

Saving Grace - The King Is Coming, 4.1 out of 5 based on 28 ratings College Admission Essays Online.

About the author Jeremiah Holdsworth

I was born in Florida and currently reside in the Houston Texas area. I have a wonderful wife and two sons. I like all genres of music so I can't be boxed in. I listen to it all and review it all. View all posts by Jeremiah Holdsworth

100 Responses to 'Saving Grace – The King Is Coming'

  1. Mike K says:

    wow! I really need to get this album, I’d love the hard copy but it’s gonna be a problem in Poland. I love their attitude and bold lyrics, which are some of the best around!

    • Joe says:

      Be happy to know that they are also the nicest guys I’ve ever met.
      Not all of the members are Christian but every single member is so approachable and friendly, I’ve had many discussions with them about loads of different things.
      Both Nick and Vasely are also very very spiritually smart and I’ve had some sick discussions with them.
      I live in NZ so I’ve seen them at least 15 times since 2008. Their live shows are so insane

  2. Justin (the other) says:

    I’m so excited for this!!!

  3. Mike K says:

    also pretty nic cover :)

  4. dude says:

    at least Facedown’s art doesn’t look exactly the same.

    oh, wait.

  5. Kevin Fitz says:

    Pumped for the album, though, I do not believe Universalism is a lie.

    • Jake Potter says:

      would you care to explain?

    • Derek Olsthoorn says:

      I smell a flame war. Also… Dissertation Consultation Services Gmu.

    • Chris Daggett Doctoral Dissertation. says:

      I don’t know much about Universalism other than that it’s a hot button issue right now and a trending set of beliefs some young people are latching on to. I’m kind of old school when it comes to my beliefs in that salvation comes from a Faith in Christ. The scripture that Derek linked to says it all (John 14:6). John 3:16-21 is pretty self explanatory as well. I think it’s great that some of these heavy bands are bringing attention to “some” false doctrines that are out there floating around. Some people want to live in this shiny happy little world where butterflies are abundant and flowers never wilt. Where there are never consequences for our actions. It’s a real world out there and there are consequences for our actions. The happy happy joy joy hippy mentality where we are all just the same and destined to go to heaven with sinners and saints is kind of sad. I had a hard time with my Grandfather’s death earlier this year because I knew he wasn’t a believer and would probably not be in heaven with the rest of us when we die at some point but we did try our best to share with him before he went. I just hope maybe in his heart he did make a choice before that final breath. People trying to make “religion” more palatable by revising their belief systems in the public eye is just a joke. It’s like taking a 500 page novel, condensing it into “Cliff Notes” and reading from there. I am no expert on this whole new movement thing but I just stick to what I feel comfortable with and that’s reading from the word of God. Some of these other new age type authors have their own agendas and reasons behind what they write, same as politicians. I just don’t see why people insist on revising the word of God to fit their own moral aspirations and belief systems. What do people want Christianity to be like? Mormonism? We all know how many times the Mormon book has been revised in the past few hundred years. Mormons already believe they are Christians and that we are the ones who need to be saved. Nothing like a good book written by a Gold Miner to strike my interest ;) haha.

    • Kevin Fitz says:

      I should clarify, I don’t believe Christian Universalism is a lie. Yes, I do believe Christ paid our debt. And I think DT pretty much nailed this topic dead, thank you. :)

  6. Joey says:

    This album is totally awesome, listened to it on spotify the other day, it doesn’t change anything in the genre, but it sure as “hell” (hurr hurr) doesn’t need to, with lyrics like these!

    However, I am a little annoyed by the lyrics to the song Kefirah, since it seems to imply that universalists don’t believe in hell, which shows that Saving Grace probably weren’t really into the subject matter when they wrote the song. But can’t really blame them, most christians don’t know much about christian universalism, but then again, most christian don’t write songs about it.

    • DT says:

      Yeah, I’m sure Universalism is just like any other term; variances exist and blanket assumptions are made in a generalized sense that doesn’t account for those variances.

      Ultimately, God is the judge who understands all variances in life. Variances that range from theological views–like this topic, to being born without the mental capacity to believe or confess Jesus as lord, to being born in an extremely abusive environment that crafts an individual for heinous sinful behavior.

      I don’t think God is stupid, illogical, small minded, or black and white. The things universalists don’t understand, God will take care of. The things anti-universalists don’t understand, God will take care of. And this is why I consider myself a pseudo-universalist. I don’t know if that’s a term used by anyone else and I don’t know anyone who shares my particular perspective that still maintains Christ as the only way. I don’t care. God will judge. That’s good enough for me.

    • Joey says:

      DT, I am personally a Christian universalist, and it is not just some trend some guy named Rob bell started up to make som cash, it has been around for ages, even before St. Augustine, and yes we all maintain that Christ is the ONLY way (:

      You should check out tentmaker ministries, not that I’m advertising for them or anything, but I think you would at least find it interesting. Same goes for anyone else wondering what Christian universalists believe.

  7. Travis says:

    This ius by far my favorite heavy record of the year. I would give this a 10/10/. There is not one weak point in the whole album. A ball kicker from start to finish!

    • Smacky X says:

      Loving this album right now too, but I think an 8 (or 9) is a fair score by merit of the somewhat formulaic song structures from song to song. I think a little more diversity is what this one needs for a perfect 10. That being said- I love it and would give it a solid 9!

  8. Breakdowns are a guilty pleasure of mine. These guys always deliver. Personally, I think most Metalcore is done evolving. There’s nothing extremely special about the album, but that doesn’t subtract from the fact that it’s a fun fist-pumping, head-banging listen. 6/10.

    As for the album art, if Facedown released a CD feature a solid white background with nothing on it save a pencil smudge, it would be more interesting than their tired artwork.

    • College Admissions Essay Help English. says:


    • stevo says:

      I kinda agree when you say that most metalcore is done evolving but I think that there actually IS something special about the album (or the band) because there is currently no other spirit filled metalcore band that incorporates the “european vegan-sXe-metal style” that was a big thing mostly in Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Italy in the late 90’s and early 2000’s. I assume most people won’t be able to relate but especially when I listen to songs like Shekinah I feel 10 years younger:-) What’s also amazing is the audible increase in quality of vocals and guitar-work. For me definitely a 9.

      I might stand alone with my opinion but although one can certainly argue about some of the past album covers of Facedown releases I really like this one. It’s a “quiggelized” realization of a picture showing the return of our Lord and King Jesus Christ and although I’m not sure what the “winged worms”:-) are supposed to stand for I really like the overall look of the artwork. To me it’s like something like a “Facedown-trademark-thing”. You can tell it’s a Facedown band just by looking at the cover art.

    • Smacky X says:

      Love the album art and I love that Facedown has worked with Quiggle to establish their own style that comes through on a lot of their releases. Yeah its the same style but I think that there is enough of a diversity in the concepts to keep it interesting…

    • Loren Wade says:

      I don’t think metalcore is anywhere close to being done “evolving”.

      Yeah, there’s a lot of repetition and stuff that sounds the same, but that applies to every genre and subgenre. People just need to start writing original music, no matter the genre.

      But yes, breakdowns need a makeover.

  9. Can’t wait to hear the entire album. Working on getting it. About the universalism topic? Universalists believe everyone will eventually get to heaven right? What’s the difference between a universalist and a christian universalist?

    • CellarGore says:

      One ignores all of the Bible, the other only ignores some of it.

    • Joey says:

      Unitarian Universalists (The ones this song seems to be refering to) believe that not one religion holds the whole truth, and that they can all be used to come to some sort of “absolute” truth.

      Christian Universalists believe that the bible, in its original language actually supports the eventual salvation of all. A belief supported by early church writers, such as Origen, Gregory of Nyssa, Clement of Alexandria, eventually Jerome and many others.

      Uninformed Christians believe that all universalism is the same, and the Christian Universalists don’t believe in hell, punishment or Christ being the only way.

    • stevo says:

      …OK…since someone else mentioned the universalism-topic again… I’m not saying this to hurt anyone reading this but let’s just imagine for a second that universalism would be true… what would then be the purpose of the great commission (I’m not talking about the band:-)? …what would be the purpose of the church as the “ekklesia” and the bride of christ?

    • Joey says:

      @ Stevo

      To of course spread the great news of Christ, to worship him as we always have, to tell people about the sacrifice he made, so that we won’t have to undergo the punishment of sin.

      You wouldn’t believe how much we actually agree on. The only thing universalists don’t believe in, is ETERNAL punishment. We believe in punishment, even long-enduring punishment (The word used in the new testament to describe the longevity of “Hell” is AIÓN or AIÓNIOS) This has been translated into “Eternal” in a lot of mainstream English translations, but the literal translation is actually “Age-enduring”.

      So, we believe in remedial punishment, not eternal punishment.

    • Kurtis says:

      Yes, but Joey, The word used in the new testament to describe the longevity of “Hell” is AIÓN or AIÓNIOS. It’s the same term use to describe the longevity of heaven too. This has been translated into “Eternal” in a lot of mainstream English translations, but the literal translation is actually “Age-enduring”. So if “Hell” or “punishment” arn’t “eternal”, because of the word AION or AIONIOS, then you must also reason that Heaven also is not eternal, but rather only “Age-enduring”….I guess, accourding to this train of thought, Nothing last forever, but is only “Age-enduring”…

    • Brandon says:

      What purpose did Christ’s death and resurrection have on all mankind, cleansing us of our sins and promising to save us from an eternity in hell, if we’re all just going to be saved in the end anyway? I mean think about it for a minute, if Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, etc, are just going to end up in Heaven with the rest of people despite their horrific and demonic (in my opinion) crimes, then the blood of Jesus had no purpose. Honestly, I don’t understand all these modern type terms people place at the beginning or end of the word “Christianity”. I guess I just belong to an old school line of thought, probably due to my upbringing in non-Denominational Churches.

    • Joey says:

      @ Brandon

      Christ’s dead is ever important, Brandon, because it’s what saves us in the first place (:

      It’s what makes it possible for sinners to realize their faults, and accept the grace of our father, Christian Universalists simply deny the belief, that it is impossible to accept this grace after the body is dead. And we don’t just deny this because we feel it’s uncomfortable, we do it, because we feel we have the biblical proof to support it. Universalism isn’t a “new-age”-Christian thing, It’s been around longer than the Lutheran church, before Augustine even (:

  10. Joey says:

    I’m not really hoping to start a huge theological discussion here on IVM, so I’ll just put a quote from a great book titled “Hope Beyond Hell” written by missionary Gerry Beauchemin:

    “Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 re-ferred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah‘s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preced-ing the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon‘s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether.
    Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated.”

    That obviously doesn’t answer the whole question, but if you are truly interested in it, I’d advice you to check out the book, it is available for free, both in physical and e-book format, on


  11. Kurtis says:

    Regardless of the fact that it may refer to diffrent sets of time dependent upon each situation idvidually, still none of those “sets of time” are eternal…belly of a fish 3 days, to the slave, his life, To the Aaronic priesthood, a generation. Still none of which is eternal. So yes, your right that the use of the word may infact represent a diffrent span of time for “Hell” then it does “Heaven”, but still none of the examples in your argument or in the book are “eternal”. So with this reasoning neither will or can last “Forever”.

  12. Kurtis says:

    Regardless of the fact that it may refer to different sets of time dependent upon each situation individually, still none of those “sets of time” are eternal…belly of a fish 3 days, to the slave, his life, To the Aaronic priesthood, a generation. Still none of which is eternal. So yes, your right that the use of the word may in fact represent a different span of time for “Hell” then it does “Heaven”, but still none of the examples in your argument or in the book are “eternal”. So with this reasoning neither “Hell” or “Heaven” can last “Forever”.

    • Joey says:

      Ah, but think about it, what if the next life actually IS a new age? What if it doesn’t just refer to an eternal life, but a NEW life with our heavenly father, one which can last as long as our father wills it. You are arguing, as if it HAS to be eternal, and if I can’t prove it is, then I’m in the wrong, but does it really have to be?

  13. Kurtis says:

    Yes, when one loses a theological debate it is easy to run and hide in the Heavenly Father can do what he wants corner, because yes, God can do what he wants. Then I get to look like the guilty one for questioning what God can do, but I’m not questioning what God can do. All I’m questioning is that if the only good argument to decrease the penalty of “Hell” is a root word debate, you must use the root word correctly in all cases. Otherwise you have no argument. So yes, your right, the Heavenly Father will do as he pleases, and no we don’t know what exactly that means, but using AION or AIONIOS to prove “Hell” is not “Eternal” is a poor argument.

    • Joey says:

      I’m not hiding in any corner, you were the one who made it seem like I was wrong, because I said, maybe it doesn’t mean eternal at all in any case, and then you won? Because why? Because the MAJORITY of Christians in history thinks it means eternal? I think you fail to realize how significant this “root word”-debate is, the meaning of the word Aion, is one of the hottest issues keeping the entire debate between eternal/non-eternal punishment alive.

    • Dan S. says:

      Guys, stop arguing for the sake of winning. Really, its fruitless. Its pretty evident neither of you are going to change your opinion. Honestly, questioning stuff like this can be pretty dangerous if you ask me. If nothing is eternal, then really, like Brandon said, what’s the point? If we have no lasting punishment/reward, then why did God even see it fit to send His son to die for us if we’ll only be in Hell for a finite amount of time? What would He really be saving us from?
      Sorry, but that doesn’t track.
      I’ll say that and no more.
      But…to bring this back on topic…I really liked the one song I heard. It definitely piqued my interest in this band…what would be some good songs/albums to pick up from these guys?

    • Kurtis says:

      And I quote, “You are arguing, as if it HAS to be eternal, and if I can’t prove it is, then I’m in the wrong, but does it really have to be?” I never said it “HAS to be eternal” I believe it is, but I never once argued it HAS to be. Also I never argued you were wrong. Actually, if you look back through our conversation you will see that all I said was that if one in not Eternal then neither can the other be. The same word is used in referring to Heaven and Hell. Even if you did, lose the debate, it doesn’t matter because, many losers of debate have actually been correct. The loss of a debate has more to do with good sound arguments VS. less sound arguments. Not right or wrong. So I’m not saying your are wrong, what I’m saying is that when you take a root word and only look at it in the way that would help your argument you misuse the word more then the English translation and understanding of it. If it means eternal great, but if I’m wrong and it doesn’t, as you say mean eternal then neither can it mean eternal in any other use of the word.

    • Kurtis says:

      @ Dan S. 2 things, first give Joey a chance, if you read through all of his post you would see his answers to your questions,
      “If nothing is eternal, then really, like Brandon said, what’s the point? If we have no lasting punishment/reward, then why did God even see it fit to send His son to die for us if we’ll only be in Hell for a finite amount of time? What would He really be saving us from?”
      He’s answered these questions more then once, and by the way, his answers to these questions, I agree with 100%
      Second, Not all arguing is fruitless, and yes, through debate change does occur. I’m not mad at Joey, heck I don’t even know Joey. I like to Debate, discuss, and converse over things in which I’m passionate about, Christ, music, faith, love, the list goes on. I hold NO grudges I just Love this conversation and IVM. So I will continue as long as Joey, or you, Brandon are willing to continue this Debate.
      Side note, I love Saving Grace.

    • Joey says:

      Well, I seem to have misunderstood you, if that’s the case, I apologize.

      I thought when you said “when one loses a theological debate it is easy to run and hide in the Heavenly Father can do what he wants corner” you meant I was wrong, and then plugged my ears and screamed “G-D CAN DO WHATEVER BLABLABLA”!!” But if it was just an example, I apologize for trying to villainise you like that !

      But I would like to say, I am not taking the word and looking at it in the way that agrees with me, I am looking at the way the word is used throughout scripture, and trying find out what it means in different contexts, and as you pointed out to me, it can never mean eternal, in our understanding of the word at least. (Not that we REALLY understand what eternal means)

      I am studying theology at the university, but English is not my first language, so it’s not that I’m ignorant, I can just easily misunderstand other people (:

    • Kurtis says:

      Well Joey English is my first language and I misunderstand people all the time! Also, (Not that we REALLY understand what eternal means) is very true! Christ died to allow a way for all people to be reconciled to himself, God. Whether or not all people will chose his forgiveness and Love and accept it is another question entirely. And whether that choice has to happen in this life or can be made later, in the next life, is unknown. I’ve seen arguments for both sides Biblical and personally, and I still don’t know, but there are better explanations to this debate then the use of AION or AIONIOS root meaning.

    • Joey says:

      I know, I know, but I assumed (wrongly, obviously) that you were one of those guys, who would point to a whole bunch of King James verses, and say “LOOK, JESUS TALKS ABOUT HELL, AND IT IS ETERNAL!!” as I have tried, so, oh so many times, and in those cases, informing them what those words ACTUALLY mean, is a pretty good start.

      I realize there are very, very many things you can talk about when it comes to hell and punishment, and I have read quite a couple of books on the subject, and I am still reading more, I can almost assure you, that my special at the university will be written about this subject, as it means a lot to me, personally.

    • Kurtis says:

      Well, good luck to you, not only in your studies at the university, but also in what you find for the purpose of your soul/spirit. I too am interested in this topic, and I like you, believe what I believe, and even if in the end we don’t agree on topics like Hell, it doesn’t matter, as long as we do believe in and do not diminish Christ and his sacrafice on the cross. Much Love…and see, Dan S., you thought this argument was fruitless. In Christ, nothing is fruitless. Thanks guys.

    • Dan S. says:

      Joey must have posted his reply to Brandon while I was in the middle of writing my post, so I didn’t see that he had made that reply haha.
      I still don’t feel like the question was answered adequately, though. Again, if anyone can just decide after death to accept God’s grace for our sins, than it probably wouldn’t be a stretch to say that the majority of mankind resides in heaven (based off of that assumption). Jesus said that wide is the gate that leads to destruction, and narrow is the path that leads to the Kingdom of God, and few find it. (I’m paraphrasing here). That in itself doesn’t make sense.
      I guess my question still remains: Why would God send His son to die here, if we could just accept truth after we die? I’m pretty sure Hell wouldn’t need to exist if that were so…who would get sent there? I doubt anyone would want to choose Hell over Heaven :)
      So those are my thoughts…thank you for being respectful and courteous in this. Too many times these things spiral into personally offending people…this hasn’t. I’ll admit, this is intriguing…its testing why I believe what I believe and its a good reminder for me (my opinion still stands…haha)

    • Dan S. says:

      Wow…alot just happened, again, while I was formulating my reply. Sorry again, folks!

    • Kurtis says:

      All right Dan!!! Your into this! I Love it! I like you, believe Hell to be eternal in our understanding of the word. But, even if were wrong Christ still had to die so that we can except his sacrifice and God’s Love shown through the cross. The choice isn’t Heaven or Hell, the choice is Christ Love and will for our lives through his sacrifice, or our choice for our lives through our own selfishness, greed, pride, envy, the list goes on. We are born separated from God and chose our sins time and time again keeping us in hell, in this life and the next. It’s only once we cling to the cross and Accept Christ that we can experience God will for our lives in this life and the next. I believe we only get this mortal life to chose, but even if I’m wrong and Joey is right, regardless of when you chose Christ the choice still must be made or you will stay in and dwell in Hell as long as necessary.

    • Joey says:

      Thanks, and good luck to you too, I hope and pray the best for you and your faith (:

      Dan. S, I can try to give you a response, but again, the book “Hope Beyond Hell” is a great free book that is definitely a good introduction to this subject, you are truly intrigued by it (:

      We don’t believe people can go to heaven without Jesus, as He himself says in revelation, he holds the keys to death and Hades, so when we say be believe you can accept G-d’s grace after death, we of course mean, His grace shown through Christ (:

      The verse you are referring to: ” Go in through the narrow gate; for wide is the… road which leads to ruin”
      I don’t believe it’s talking about hell, it’s talking about our life here on earth, how, for example, when Jesus tells us to sell our belongings, and give to the poor, he is guiding us towards the “perfect life”, but if we choose to strive for material things, things of no lasting value, we are choosing the path that can only lead to spiritual illness, a non-fulfilling lifestyle, and thereby not walking on the road to “life”.

      We still believe that each man will be judged according to his works, so if someone walks the path of destruction, he will be punished for it, but it is a remedial punishment, one to “discipline” (not in the typical sense of the word, but it’s the closest I got right now) the sinner, and to eventually, remove the evil/sin from his body.

      Hopw that gives you some insight to what Christian Universalists believe (:

    • Dan S. says:

      Yes, when it all boils down to it, that is THE choice…whether we’re right or wrong.
      I just want to say thanks to both of you…I’m really encouraged by all of this. You both logically brought me through why I believe what I believe, and its healthy to be tested like this. I appreciate it!
      And I guess my comment on the argument being fruitless is that, unfortunately, alot of discussions like this don’t end well, and I didn’t want to see that happen. I try to be respectful as I can, sorry if I came across that way at any time.
      Thanks again and God Bless you both.

    • Dan S. says:

      *”that way”, meaning disrespectful. Sorry. I DO want to come across as respectful.

    • Dan S. says:

      @ Joey:
      That does give me a better perspective, thank you.
      Concerning remedial punishment:
      I guess I don’t see how having temporary punishment in Hell would purge, so to speak, your body of sin. “Hell”, as I believe it to be, is complete separation from God. Yes, fire, brimstone, misery, all that as well, but the biggest thing about Hell is that God’s presence is completely removed. That is what makes it hell.
      With that said, only Jesus and His Holy Spirit can give you any kind of freedom from sin. With God’s presence being absent, how is that possible? Hell cannot free one from bondage. Yes, we would realize everything we’ve done wrong, but without God’s presence, it just isn’t possible to remove or purge sin.
      Thanks for reading and God Bless!

    • Dan S. says:

      My comment didn’t seem to post, I’ll try again. Sorry if I double post.
      Thanks, that does give me a better perspective.
      Concerning remedial punishment:
      I don’t see how its possible for sin to be purged, so to speak, in Hell. Hell, as I believe it to be, is complete separation from God. Yes, fire, brimstone, misery, all that also, but the biggest thing about Hell is that its total separation from God and His presence.
      With that being said, only God and His Holy Spirit can give one any kind of freedom from sin. How then can one be removed from sin in a place where God’s presence is absent? God’s presence simply can’t reside in Hell…its against His nature. Yes, we would realize everything we’ve done wrong, but only through Jesus and His Holy Spirit can freedom from bondage come.
      Thanks for reading and God Bless!

    • Dan S. says:

      Still doesn’t seem to be working
      Thanks, that does give a better perspective.
      Concerning remedial punishment:
      I don’t see how one can be purged of sin, so to speak, in Hell. Hell, from what I believe it to be, is complete separation from God and His Holy Spirit. Yes, fire, brimstone, misery, all that also, but the biggest thing about Hell is the absence of God and His presence.
      With that being said, only through Jesus and His Holy Spirit working can one receive any kind of freedom from sin. How then, can one experience any freedom from sin in a place where God’s presence is absent? His presence can’t reside in Hell…it goes against His nature. Yes, we would realize everything that we’ve done, but only through Jesus can sin be conquered. Hell, or any kind of punishment alone, cannot remove sin.
      Thanks for reading and God Bless!

    • Dan S. says:

      *For some reason my posts were not showing up (I had tried twice before), which is why I said “Still doesn’t seem to be working”. Didn’t want that to be taken the wrong way.

    • Sasuda says:

      Universalism can be a very dangerous thing. I can see the idea that it is a possibility, but I don’t believe it to be true. Just pre-stating my personal position, to help you understand my perspective. Some possible (not necessarily yours) issues that arise with this are avoiding persecution and responsibilities. While I don’t consider this to be as important I just thought it was worth a mention. One thing with saying you are a Christian Universalist is that it takes a lot more neutral stance and therefore is less likely to cause immediate persecution versus someone who would say that if you do not acknowledge Christ as your saviour you will condemned to hell or a place where things are infinitely bad. I’m only saying this because we are called to be different from the world and to endure persecution. Just a thought that passed through my mind. Obviously there are cases it is not true, but I would say the majority of the time persecution would/could be more easily avoided. Secondly the responsibility of an individual as a Christian becomes diminished. If all people would eventually reach heaven, then why should I risk times where my faith is challenged by others. I could make sure I was going to be saved and go to heaven and just let everyone else find it sooner or later. And what about the possibility that there is no real timeline after death? In this situation decisions are final and determined by heart alone. Also what about Lucifer/Satan? What separates him from us in that he would be eternally banished from heaven, is it the simple fact we were humans he was not. Theses are just some things that concern me with Universalism. Similar in a way to Christians that believe evolution. Although that is another story.
      Interesting nonetheless.

  14. metalhunter says:

    Aside from the theological debate unfolding… I thought this album was pretty sweet. It had a lot of similarities with Behind Enemy Lines. Can’t wait to hear their next stuff. Anyone pick up that half e.p. thing they did with another label?

    • stevo says:

      I’m not sure, if someone else replied to your question already… maybe there is an aswer hidden somewhere in further below. I have bought the downloads from Saving Grace from their split with xOne Choicex (buying the downloads has the advantage of not not having to buy th whole 7′ and thus also the -secular- songs of the other band). The 2 songs from Saving Grace are great, a little more “hardcore” then their latest material on “the King is coming” and the production is rawer. The Earth Crisis cover is well done also it does not contain any bad language and the topic does from my perspective not contradict what Saving Grace stands for lyrically…but obviously one has to like the original in order to appreciate the cover. Hope this helps.

  15. Is there scripture to back up Christian Universalism? Sorry if someone posted the verses already. Didn’t see them above.

    • Kurtis says:

      Jer. 32:35, in which God says to the people that burning children as a punishment is detestable and never even entered his mind is a big one.

    • Kurtis says:

      Also, Since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22)

      “For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe” (1 Timothy 4;10).

    • metalhunter says:

      I don’t believe so. They were saying how the translation of a particular can be scewed amongst the translations. But my thing is no one above that accepts the Univeral Christianity said what the purpose for Christ dying. For us to know that he loves us and forgave us of our sins? Sure but WHY did he forgive us of our sins? That was never answered above. He saved our sould from Eternal damnation, if we chose to believe in Him.

      Side note, in Revelation it says that Satan will be cast down into the lake of fire forever. According to the Universalist thought, correct me if I am wrong, Satan will eventually go to Heaven as well. I really don’t believe that. But if someone out there does, to each their own I guess.

    • Kurtis says:

      In Rev. 20 at the end only 3 things directly go to the Lake of Fire, Satan, Death, and Hades. Everyone else is judged unto their deeds. And if anyone’s name was not in the book of life they are thrown also in the lake of fire, but the Bible doesn’t tell us who’s names are in the book and who’s aren’t, therefore if all men are reconciled to God through Christ death then the book of life could, in theory, hold all men’s names, and only Satan, Death, and Hades will burn up in the Lake of Fire. Also, bear in mind in verse 13, the Sea, and Hades will give up their dead to be judged prior to be thrown into the lake of fire. So some believe that it is during their time in Hades, the grave, or sheol that they will come to terms with who Christ is and seek the forgiveness offered to them from the cross.

  16. Kurtis says:

    Alot of other scripture is used in defending Christian Universalism too, but not based on the way the scripture reads, but instead in how it is interpreted.

  17. DT says:

    Interesting stuff. Just to clarify what I shared earlier, my Christian-pseudo-universalism thoughts still allow for a hell and eternal punishment. That process just isn’t so black and white by my understanding. The serial killers Brandon mentioned could very well receive grace, and I could come up with reasons why. But I don’t want to get too involved here. What I do want to say is that God is complex, our lives are complex, and I have no doubt grace is complex, too.

    • Kurtis says:

      DT, or Mr. Pseudo-Universalist, I read your earlier post, and although I went more in depth with my debate, just for the fun of conversation, I think me and you are on the same page.

  18. DT says:

    I’m actually feeling sucked in by metalhunter’s question of why Christ’s death under universalism… I really want to answer it as Mr. Pseudo-Universalist. I guess I’ll go for something more in-depth and, Kurtis, you can tell me if we’re still on the same page or if I’m in left field, ha.

    The purpose by my understanding is to balance the scales for a broken world. His death definitely didn’t fix the world. People don’t get saved and then become healed from all their hurts and traumas. Jesus said IT is finished, not everything is finished. Act II of a three act play, if you will. Act II being atonement; Act III being the final restoration and redemption of creation. Anyway, because of our broken world, no one is born with free will. I’m not a fatalist, we have a will, but no one has PURE free will. We couldn’t choose to live sin free if we wanted.

    That being the case, what we can be justly held accountable for becomes skewed. Our lives are products of things we can choose, yes, but our lives are mostly products of things we have no choice in at all. The atonement, the sacrifice, grace, is a logical act of justice that makes up for our skewed lives. That is why.

    • DT says:


      In practical application, a Muslim who grew up misinformed about who Jesus really is, or was taught to believe Christians are crazy, didn’t choose any of that. Their life is skewed, their beliefs are skewed, by things they had no control over. I believe God will judge their life as an individual in a complex manner, not black and white, according to what they do know, what they are accountable for. Sin is sin, unbelief is unbelief, but Christ’s pure sacrifice brings balance to broken system plagued by sin and through grace any part of their sin or unbelief that was skewed by something not in their control won’t be held against them. The cross brings balance and paves the way for Act III.

      A fair question one could pose in response to my thoughts is, why preach the Gospel if God will balance it all out? My answer is currently that balance to the system isn’t a guarantee for salvation. Salvation is made possible for all by my current pseudo-universalism beliefs, but guaranteed salvation comes only through directly believing in and living according to the teachings of Christ.

    • Kurtis says:

      Wow, Not sure how to answer all of that, but in my understanding God as Judge will judge and judge righteously. What he holds us accountable for is unknown. According to the gospel all of us that chose to accept his free gift of atonement on the cross won’t be judged, because Christ did not come to condemn the world, He came to SAVE the world. Sins, aka things in which separate us from God are not matters of how were raised or why we hold certain beliefs, rather sin is separation from God through actions and matters of our sinful hearts, such as, being prideful, lusting, stealing, lying, murdering, being hateful, judgmental, the list goes on and on. Point is, God is the judge and will do so according to his will not our understanding of right and wrong. So no, I don’t believe how one is raised (Muslims) will be what their judged for if and when they are judged according to Christ love shown through the cross. Does that make sense? is that pseudo-universalist? I’m not sure…

    • DT says:

      Yeah, if I’m understanding right, I could definitely see that as pseudo-universalist, ha. It sounds like you’re not assuming to know how God will judge whoever He judges? But I’m unclear about the extent of the universalist aspect in your thoughts?

      I see optimism in your emphasis on Christ not coming to condemn but to save the world, but I can’t tell if the optimism is there for those who don’t accept the gift of atonement, for whatever reason, or were raised in a different faith; or if it just stops for you at God being the judge and the purpose of Christ, which is still completely fair and agreeable if so.

      I know I take it a little farther and incorporate psychology, sociology, and philosophy into my faith and reading of Scripture to give me an idea of how God may judge, which ends up being fairly optimistic in a pseudo-universalist kind of way.

      Regardless, even if we honed in on some differences through further discussion, we definitely both agree with the main point that God is the judge. That really is the main thing for me, and I think understanding that is very important in the everyday life of a Christian because it has a bigger impact than one might think on how we treat others. We often unknowingly operate in such judgment for a people claiming “unmerited favor” on a regular basis. I disagree with that definition of grace, anyway… but still.

    • metalhunter says:

      I totally see where you are coming from. I slightly believe what you are saying. I call it accountability. If you’ve never heard of the Word, or I guess despise and have never read it, you should not be judged for that. That is reasonable. I am non-denominational. So interpretations are fairly limited of the Bible. I am also by no means saying I know the Will of God and His plan. No one does.

      Still when you said, “Balance the scales,” I cannot get my head around that. He died for our sins for us to be cleansed? I mean what state was the world in before as compared to now? We obviously still sin. The way I see it, it gave us a way to be with Him. Because before we were apart from Him. This was before the Holy Spirit came to be with us upon our calling. In the old testament there is no mention of the holy spirit inside us like it is now. It wasn’t til after Christ’s death that was made possible.

    • Steven Powless says:

      What is Hell but the absence of the presence of God? In other words, what is Hell but those who turn aside from the Lord getting exactly what they want (to not have hide nor hair to do with the Lord for all eternity) and then realizing that eternity without even the essence of Almighty God isn’t what it’s cracked up to be? Just like darkness is the absence of light, Hell is the absence of God, in the company of the Devil and his minions, outside the city walls. It’s an eternal application of “be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.” There might be flames out there in Hell. There might not. But not being in the presence of God is, I imagine, the worst torture possible. Regardless of whether salvation after death is possible (which none of us can truly be sure does or does not exist), it’s definitely best not to bank on it and just turn our faces to the Lord now.

    • Kurtis says:

      Steve, best comment thus far…thank you

  19. rowdyrob says:

    So how about them forums? lol (Sorry, I had to bring it up again)

    • Kurtis says:

      When comments get started and go on and on back and forth it’s easier to stay put where you are then to get the entire conversation and all whom are involved to move to a forum…People are just prone to do whats easiest. So since this stream should be in regards to Saving Grace…It’s a fun energetic album, much in the vein of their first Facedown release, nothing new here…

    • Kurtis says:

      P.S., where are the forums located on this site anyway? I’ve never used them and can’t seem to find them…

    • Brandon says:

      I know man, I really want them too. It takes time to build them and I know our web guy Fusse is pretty busy with his schedule plus I have virtually no budget to pay for the things I’d like to do here. All my money from my real job goes to support my family and a few left over dollars pay for web hosting and related costs. We have no ads here at IVM so as you can imagine its difficult paying for stuff. Forums are coming though, I promise :)

  20. Yorik bruhl says:

    Ephel Duath is sorta the strangest combo of jazz/metal I’ve heard. If they had polka, they’d win.

  21. CellarGore says:

    If you don’t believe in an eternal Hell, that’s fine… but you better throw your Bible away and separate yourself from Christianity because it’s like saying you believe in Lord of the Rings but don’t believe in Hobbits. And in regards to “Christian Universalism,” I mean that in the most demeaning and offensive way possible.

    Need forums.

    And that’s all I care to say. My opinion is better than everyone else’s. I’m now going to go frolicking in a field of daisies.

    • Joey says:

      That’s funny, because I have several bibles that don’t talk about eternal hell (:

      I know you probably really, really like your King James Version, but the fact of the matter is, it’s not a very accurate translation.

    • CellarGore says:

      You’re easily amused. And you’re wrong. I believe that “my” KJV is a relic. And other than the fact that it’s a beautiful translation linguistically, I don’t “really really” like it either.

      I would normally ask what translation you’re namelessly praising, but judging by your arrogant-sounding post (calling it how I see it), it can’t possibly be worth looking into. A Jehovah’s Witness is going to recommend the NWT as the best translation, Mormons are going to recommend some Joseph Smith translation. Both of which are edited and translated with a different motive and little knowledge of the original texts, thus they are pretty useless in my eyes. A Christian Universalist’s translation isn’t any different.

      Without an eternal Hell, the Bible is rendered a useless, inconsistent and hilarious fairytale. You have to take everything in context. It makes absolutely no sense otherwise. I don’t blame you, though… I think I’d be a much happier person if I was a Universalist. It’d be like Peter Pan or something.

    • Smacky X says:

      How about actually using/quoting Scripture instead of suggesting what it says without backing up what you are saying? “You” meaning both sides of the discussion. Some actual context might make for a more useful conversation…

    • CellarGore says:

      As you can see, it’ll all come down to translation… then opinions of what’s right and what isn’t. It will go back and forth with no civilized end because this is the wild plains of the internet. To include scripture from my perspective is to include dozens of verses, as well as verses that show that Universalism’s verses are flawed within the context of the rest of scripture. This isn’t the place for that.

      I’ve had my fair share of discussions like this, and they’re useless. It’s better to call each other names and shut up about it. It goes no where. And I’m perfectly fine with realizing the Christian Universalists are just clueless. You can’t blame them if they have a translation that cuts out bits about eternal Hell. Who can argue with that? You can’t, so why waste the time?


    • Kurtis says:

      Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who calls me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do. When the Judgement Day comes, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God’s message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!” Then I will say to them, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!

    • metalhunter says:

      I think this conversation is over…

  22. Steven Powless says:

    How about the Catholic perspective?

    Lumen Gentium
    14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
    They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.”(12*) All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.(13*)

    16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God.(18*) In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.(126) But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can* attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.

    *Note where it says “can,” not “will.”

    *fire in the hole*

  23. Ty says:

    I’m not an evangelical, so maybe my opinion on universalism isn’t important. But….This cd sounds plastic to me. I hate the mix on the songs I’ve heard. It sounds like guitars and bass were recorded using some kind of reverse-engineered youtube software. Then As I Lay Dying-esque drums were dropped over the top. Then add very unsure vocals that at times seem too loud and others too quiet. I guess I just don’t get. This is a super exciting time to be a heavy music fan, and this record falls very flat compared to bands that make me fall in love with hardcore all over again.

    • metalhunter says:

      I do agree the mixing is not the best on this cd. A good example is on the first real song, I think Shekinah, the guitars seems to over power the vocals a little too much. But other than a couple mixing flaws, I really enjoyed the album. The solos are something new they have added as compared to the past where it wan’t at all present.

      Not to mention the lyrics that melt your face off ;).

  24. Sasuda says:

    The only thing I would say is that personally I don’t think they’re metalcore. I’d say they’re closer to death metal. But, that’s just me.

  25. Brandon says:

    It’s a bummer when these reviews go off subject and get into some sort of deep theological discussion. Some people are probably going to continue talking about Universalism but may I just plead with you to please discuss your love or dislike for this Saving Grace album?

  26. DT says:

    I’m really into the thrash influence on Shekinah. That’s all I’ve heard off the album, and it’s enough for me to want to buy it whenever I pick up the new In The Midst of Lions.

    And I thought the cover looks cool.

  27. Steven Powless says:

    Definitely a refreshing breather from sludgy deathcore breakdowns that sound like they’re trying to compete to see who can be the slowest and most sonically sparse. Good to know someone on Facedown likes to pick up the pace. :)

  28. Kevin Fitz says:

    Woah, this got crazy, haha.

    But this album is pretty fricken good. :)

  29. steven says:

    War of Ages is metalcore?

    • Smacky X says:

      Ya. Big time.

    • steven says:

      I dont know, I always thought of WOA as a lot more technical more like death metal or nwoahm. I can see similarities between Saving Grace (metalcore) and WOA such as the heavy rhythms and riffs, but WOA is much more than metalcore.

    • Smacky X says:

      Their own self-description on their facebook page is metal/hardcore. That fusion = metalcore. That category doesn’t prevent a band from incorporating different musical elements into their music…There is too much distinctiveness between those things that characterize hardcore and those that characterize metal to just call it all “metal” (like MattR suggests below) but he’s on to something in regards to over-categorizing music. You are saying they are not metalcore because the have death metal or nwoahm(etal) elements. Those are both hybrids of metal- hence the METALcore. To have to re-categorize a band’s genre every time they diversify their guitar work/ vocal/ time signature/ whatever seems a little silly. They are metalcore, and have the freedom to introduce any musical elements they want without having to add another metal prefix to their title…

  30. steven says:

    how about New Wave of American Christian Death Core

  31. ParkerloveJesus says:

    I put this album back in my rotation and man it’s good. They do the metal and hardcore mix perfectly. It’s not crap metalcore it’s actually metal and hardcore. Love the lyrics as well. So powerful.

  32. The Media Lies says:

    Definitely deserves nothing short of 5 stars but good review.

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