3 Band: Sufjan Stevens
Title: The Age of Adz
Label: Asthmatic Kitty
Release Date: 10/12/2010
Reviewer: Joshua Hedlund
Tracklisting:
- Futile Devices
- Too Much
- Age of Adz
- I Walked
- Now That I’m Older
- Get Real Get Right
- Bad Communication
- Vesuvius
- All for Myself
- I Want To Be Well
- Impossible Soul
The indie darling’s first full-length album since 2005 is either the most brilliant thing we’ve seen in years or a fantastical derailment into nonsense. “Futile Devices” starts it off as a fairly normal acoustical, pleasant, and vulnerable track. The analog-y prog-y moog-y electronics and synths start knocking things over in the second track, although with no loss to the classic Sufjan array of vocals, handclaps, horns, and strings. The setup may be disconcerting to the kind of folks who like dancing to “Chicago” in their folky playlists, but I actually found the electronic knobs and whirs and arcade-like sound effects to add an interesting flavor to Sufjan’s already interesting indie instrumentation. As always, though, some will love it and some will not.
The lyrics get more intentionally cryptic as the album continues, and supposedly have to do with an obscure painter from the previous century and his schizophrenic visions of an alien-induced apocalypse. Of course there may be more to Sufjan’s lines than that, but who can ever know for sure?
Is “Vesuvius” a volcanic call for God to burn up our selfishness, or something else entirely? Is “Get Real Get Right” serious when it enjoins us to “get right with the Lord” because of the coming alien invasion, or is that just a metaphor? And is Sufjan expressing something extremely poignant when he repeatedly exclaims, “I’m not f***ing around” on “I Want To Be Well,” or are we completely missing it when the more fundamental among us hesitate to judge him but still rather wish he hadn’t? Sufjan’s penchant for the occasional vaguely lustful or creepy line is also still intact. Is the “murdering ghost” the Holy Spirit? Or do I just not understand him at all?
The extended album closer may have been beaten to death in recent years, but Sufjan takes things to another level entirely with his 25-minute opus composed of five musically distinct movements. Fans will be theorizing on the meanings of the different acts for years to come, as each piece feels deliberate and purposeful – including the autotune on the third movement – and yet still cryptic and weird.
Overall: At times, Sufjan seems to teeter so closely to the fine line between genius and madness that maybe only your vantage point can determine your conclusion. The vocal and instrumental layerings are as brilliant as ever. Additionally, Sufjan continues to refuse to be pigeonholed both as an independent musician and a Christian. Yet while the strange sound effects and inexplicable lyrics may be all well and good in the name of creativity, they also may be just enough to prevent you from understanding and enjoying it as much as you wish you could.
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Footnote: Some of my guesses at the lyrics came from the kind theorizing folks at SongMeanings.net.
Also, in this odd interview Sufjan reveals that they’re attempting to play the 25-minute closer live: http://thequietus.com/articles/05085-the-age-of-adz-sufjan-stevens-interview (And if you’re looking for reassurances of Sufjan’s faith, you can find it here. Or, if you’re looking for more reasons to question it, you can also find it here.)
Overall I do think it’s pretty brilliant (especially the last track) but I still didn’t like the album as much as I wanted to. Apologies in advance to those who disagree…
I was lucky enough to see the tour live and the songs made a lot more sense live. They did indeed play the 25-minute Impossible Soul. It was pretty amazing to see.
I’ve been a big fan of Sufjan for years now, but this album is POP (U2) all over again. By that I mean, What the heck was he thinking. For me, sometimes the line is not so thin between genious and nonsense and this record errs on the side of nonsensical. However, his vox for the most part are still as brilliant as ever, musically though, it just doenst resonate for me.
Keep in mind….this is just my opinion. I know not everyone agrees with me and thats fine =).
from what I’ve heard of this, it’s incredible. I need to listen to the whole thing.
It is an incredibly intriguing album.
Also, just throwing this out there – I read an article about how he had a debilitating illness for a while whilst recording/writing this record. In that context the “I’m not ****ing around, I want to be well” line makes more sense than just swearing for the sake of swearing. I can kind of relate to that too – I know I have thrown up my frustration in that way before.
Yeah. I’m not going to condemn the swearing. But when the catchy phrase gets stuck in my head and I start casually humming/almost-singing it… well then I’m reminded of why I personally choose to avoid swearing in general.
I know what you mean Joshua. Although I’ve never come close to singing it out loud but it has gotten stuck in my head a lot since that part is so insanely catchy. I kind of wish he would’ve replaced that word with ‘messing’ or I’d even take ‘screwing’. Ah well, if it gets bad enough I’ll just have to skip that part when it comes. Great album otherwise though.
That bit is so catchy! Agree!
I sing “messing” when it gets stuck in my head.
“messing” would not have had the same effect as “f*cking”. plus, he clearly doesn’t have a conviction about cussing, so for him it just makes sense. it grabs your attention and I think it’s the perfect fit if that story about him being sick is true.
this album deserves a much better rating, but The All Delighted People EP is way better than the full-length.
considering the stuff that gets 9s and 10s on here, this album should be at least on 8, while All Delighted People would be a 12
Yeah, there’s something weird about how albums have been rated of late. I hesitated to give “Black Thorn” an 8 but it’s the rating that fits based on the IVM scoring system. I don’t think all the reviewers take the scoring system into consideration. Of course, they might be and I’m just thinking weird.
I hate scoring albums… and I was tired of giving every album I review a “safe” 7 or 8… I guess I should take a closer look at the IVM scoring system. I knew someone wouldn’t like it but ultimately I think the text is more important than the score… I think a lot of people will see it as brilliant and other people won’t really get it, and that seems to be true from the comments as a whole. I’m somewhere in between, I guess.
Yeah, I know what you mean about the text being more important than the score. Unfortunately, not everyone reads the text so they look at the skull score and say “this record sucks” or “this record rocks.” Unfortunately, there’s not really a skull score for a “love it or hate it” record.
I was just talking about how EVERYTHING recently is an 8 or 9 when it gets reviewed. I just think the reviewers should look at the definition of each skull score and rate accordingly instead of throwing up the “safe” scores. No offense meant to anyone, but I feel like it’s a bit of a cop-out to just throw up the safe score.
Out of the 7 reviews I’ve written so far, none have been under an 8. If you read all the reviews I wrote based on what i said, it should be common sense why I chose the skull rating I chose. I’m just giving you all insight on how I base my scores. I’m sure at some point I’ll come across some music that I might give a 2 or 3. But then again, maybe not. =)
This album is amazing and in my top 3 for the year. I don’t care for his swearing at all in that part but I can hear the frustration and it’s sort of fitting. He’s definitely cryptic in the lyrical department but musically this is phenomenal. Plus, all the talk about aliens and stuff makes sense when you read about the artist he took all the artwork from. The dude was seriously messed up and the lyrics reflect that concept. The more I listen to it the more it seems he wrote the lyrics from that artist’s perspective had that dude ever wrote music.
Yeah, I guess I’m kinda torn about the theme… I see the brilliant side of it with the way he used the artist’s life and work in his lyrics and even the way the electronic layers fit the alien apocalypse kind of mood. But at the same time, I’m like, why reference this guy in the first place? what’s the value or point? Still thinking about all of that, I guess. And there are definitely folks who “get” Sufjan more than I do.
I can see your point there. He did pick a really weird, whacked out artist to make an album about. The guy was probably high 95% of the time (the artist I mean) and I don’t fully get what Sufjan was getting at in using him. That’s why I’d consider the album as being in my top 3 for 2010 but I could never put it higher. The musicianship is astounding enough to earn high marks though.
I was wondering what happened to this dude! I haven’t listend to much Sufjan Stevens since I burned out “Illinoise”
A couple years ago he produced a folky hymns-ish record for a pastor and his wife called “Welcome to the Welcome Wagon” which is really cool. He also released an hour-long “EP” a couple months before this album which was more in line with his non-electronic style, although it wasn’t reviewed here and I haven’t felt like giving it the attention it deserves.
If I had to sum up my reaction to this in one word, it would be “Disappointed”. Yes, I’m disappointed that Sufjan would resort to the f-word, let alone repeating it over and over in such a charming way. I agree with Ian that ADP is about 4 points better than TAoA, but neither merits a 12 IMO. ADP was so strong that my expectations were way to high for TAoA.
Maybe “Impossible Soul” is a prelude to Sufjan’s progressive rock period? It could happen if he’d just stop f***ing around.
“Impossible Soul” is awesome, no doubt. It’s a 25-minute song done right the only way it can be done. That is, many different parts that make you forget it’s that long. Love the guitar solo about 4-5 min in too.
I deleted this album from my itunes because it was messing up my sufjan playlist. I’m a fan of electronic music, but this album just didn’t do it for me. It lacks everything that made me love his previous albums.
I don’t own any Sufjan Stevens music. I guess I am missing out :(
Yes you are Brandon. I just wouldn’t start with this one. “Seven Swans” for inspiration or “Illinoise” for just great music would be better places. Hmmm, next thing you’ll be telling us is that you don’t have any Woven Hand music.
You’re not alone Brandon. I’ve never even heard a single note from this guy. I’ve just never felt the urge to listen.
Sufjan Stevens IS indie rock. If you like indie , then you give him a listen. Paste Magazine named his Illinoise album the bast of the decade.
so there is that
Keith- I don’t have any Wovenhand music either. Who are they? I like Anathallo, Damien Jurado, old Band of Horses, Sleeping at Last, etc. would I like them? I always had the urge to buy Illinoise but for some reason, I didn’t. I guess maybe I should pick it up.
Brandon, based on those artists. I’m definately gonna say you’d really like Sufjan Stevens. I haven’t heard this record yet, but from the sounds of all the comments here, I’m with KeithX: if you’re gonna start listening to Sufjan Stevens, check out “Illinoise” first.
Brandon, I put a review of the first Woven Hand album on the forums. I really like that one, it’s a great place to start. I just downloaded the newest album, “The Threshingfloor”, and can’t give an opinion after just one listen. I can’t say WH sounds like anyone, it’s unique in that respect. Maybe somebody else has a comparision?
this album is phenomenal. It is definitely in my top 3 for the year and one of the most intriguing “first listens” of a new album I have had in awhile.
props to Keith for the Wovenhand shout out, saw them a few weeks ago, they are an amazing band
Genius album. One of Sufjan’s best. Just because it might be above your head doesn’t make it less genius.
Not to start a huge debate on swearing (although this comment might), but I’d like to give my thoughts on the whole thing.
Words are not good or bad until you give them meaning. If the f-word meant nothing at all, then saying it in itself is not sin. So words are completely defined by what they mean. Hence, saying the s-word is no worse than saying “crap.” Of course, society has made the s-word taboo, which is fine and all, but it’s also tricked Christians into thinking that somehow by refraining from using the s-word and saying “crap” instead that they’re pleasing God. I don’t agree with that. If saying the s-word does not please God, then neither does “crap.” If saying “crap” does not please God, then neither does saying the s-word.
I’m a strong believer of using strong words when necessary to emphasize a point. The perfect example of this was the whole Derek Webb debacle, only people ended up missing the point. Regardless, as a Christian who refrains from cussing, I’m actually very pleased Sufjan used the lyrics he did in this album for 2 reasons:
1. It shows he’s a thinking Christian. That interview someone posted up there was brilliant because it showed just how grounded Sufjan is in his faith. Even more so, he uses the f-word here without fear that the Christian community will cry foul (he repeats it no less than 16 times). To me, this shows that he understands the concept of words and what they mean to God, and that makes me praise God for him even more.
2. The Age of Adz is a dark album, full of introspection. Often, human introspection involves a realization of how messed up and sinful we are. Such a subject can only be expressed through the use of strong words sometimes.
In conclusion, I love Sufjan, and I loved that he cussed in this album, even though I don’t cuss in my daily life. The end.
I love Mark 7 where Jesus says that it’s not what goes into your body that makes you ‘clean’ but what comes out from your heart. That’s why I don’t swear. I don’t mind people swearing though. Whether it’s right or wrong, you’ve got to feel convicted in your own heart that it is hindering you or others. Otherwise it just becomes a legalistic thing.
“Cursing” is mostly a cultural thing. Some of these words (S*** for example) wouldn’t mean anything to anyone if you said them in any other cultural context. The only real reason that I as a Christian won’t use most of those words is for the sake of my testimony for Christ. I think it’s a personal conviction though
From what I can tell, the only words that would be wrong to use would be D***, D*** you, G. D., etc. Mainly because the context of those words is actually verbally condemning things to hell.
Personally, the fact that Sufjan uses the F-bomb in his song isn’t gonna keep me from checking out the record.
Also, if I understand it correctly, Paul used strong language for his day in different places for emphasis (counting things as dung). English translations of the Bible don’t translate it as such, obviously, though.
To me saying G.D. this or d*** that isn’t that much different from saying “I hate this” or “I hate that.” Both phrases are “hate” phrases and are therefore sin, ie. Jesus saying that if you hate your brother, you’ve already committed murder in your heart.
But I agree – I don’t swear because there are people that find it offensive and in the long run, can really hurt your testimony in Christ. Obviously, it also comes down to who you’re witnessing to. It seems like words like the s-word and the f-word are becoming more accepted and mainstream in society, so in the future there may actually be a need to use them to get a message across.
And yes, Paul did use some choice words.
I didn’t read through all the comments, but most the the vagueness of some of the lyrics I think has to do with an illness that Sufjan had for awhile, and I think some of is also about love lost. It’s certainly a darker more introspective album than he has ever done, because he was releasing a lot from that time when he was very ill.
I know I already commented but I feel like stating that both this and the EP he put out this year were solid. A very welcome return for him :)
This album was disappointing first listen, as I initially dug the advanced release of I Walked. Even going to the show in Minneapolis, I felt like the album was a bit of a downer. The shows totally changed everything. The show was incredible, every part of the video, lighting, cast of musicians, etc. He played mostly songs from this new album, which until about the 5th song in I was not digging. But by the time he played Chicago as a closer, I couldn’t help but thing “this song is just so cliche of a closer, so old, doesn’t fit in the set whatsoever, and this cast of musicians. And that closer sure was epic. Whereas past music I appreciated for catchy sing-alongability, this album just has so much more tension and emotional dynamics to it. Interesting that he chose that subject to write music on, but some of the lyrics only parallel that man. Indeed, Sufjan mentioned several times that in his music he also revealed his psychotic sort of craziness. Clearly he’s not just retelling or making up stories about this deranged man, but actually can relate to him somehow.
I was surprised that Sufjan said f*** in his songs, I didn’t believe it at first. He’s usually been prone to sidestep those words, even replacing so called swear words with tamer so-called non-swead words. In one song on the album, he says he’s “lonely as heck.” Takes balls to be an indie musician and pull off words like heck, really. I don’t really mind the fword in that song, it’s desperate. as a poster mentioned before, it’s really about context. saying “god, i’m so f-ed up, please change me” and “f you.” it’s not what style you use, it’s what you’re saying, whether you’re cursing people and insulting them and degrading them, or if you use it to glorify something immoral. and ALSO if you say knowing that it will offend those who hear it. Considering that most of sufjan’s fans are not christians, and probably most who are are those who think outside the norms handed down to them, he probably has no intent to offend. In fact, it’d be pretty hard to interpret that lyrics as trying to offend.
Anyways, this is definitely in the top 3 albums of the year for me. I think the All Delighted People EP is still catchier, this is still more lasting as an album. It’s not gonna replace Illinois, or Seven Swans, or any other album…but hey, do we really want it to replace a classic? No, we want another classic. It’s a bit early to say if this will be a classic, but so far it seems to be faring pretty good for me. It’s still growing.
Yeah well Sufjan kills it again. The fans of this musical masterpeice of his are the real Sufjan fans. Every bit of his genius is poured out through every second of every song. Thank you Sufjan Stevens.
If I had bought this album without knowing the f word was in it and then heard it, I would have been quite upset and very disappointed. I personally don’t like the word, I really don’t care what context its used in either. If I’m buying music made by someone who calls themselves a christian, I don’t expect to hear certain words like the f word. One reason why I stay away from almost all secular music is because almost always there’s something said that I don’t approve of. I certainly don’t want to have music lying around that my son can get a hold that has in appropriate content because that would be killing my own witness for his sake. There is always a better choice of words that can be used.
Well, I think you have to be careful there. You’ve hit on a sensitive issue – Christians can use the f-word and still glorify God. To say otherwise borders on legalism. However, I do respect your personal conviction and desire to keep it away from your son. If I had a son, I would keep it away from him too.
Sufjan doesn’t call his music ‘Christian’ and that’s where your argument lacks slightly. He’s definitely more entrenched in the ‘secular’ market, as you put it, than the ‘Christian’ market (whatever those vague terms mean).
@ John
It really shouldn’t be sensitive at all and it doesn’t border legalism either. There are plenty of verses all over the bible that condemn using such speech. I especially like Titus 2:5-8
5To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
6Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
8Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
The f word is not a strong word, it’s a crude word. To say that you can glorify God and use the f word doing it, totally goes against all bible doctrine. A witnessing opportunity is not going to hold up when you’re using corrupt speech. The unsaved will look at you as a hypocrite as I’ve seen it happen many times before.
Not trying to bash you Jerimiah, because your heart’s in the right place, but you’re majorly overstating your case when you say it “goes against all bible doctrine.” By your case there, you are basically saying that in other sections of the Bible that Paul wrote (and other writers for that manner) he was sinning because he used strong language to emphasize his points. Just because it wasn’t translated over into English as strong language does not mean it wasn’t in the original Greek.
As mentioned above, “cursing” is mostly a cultural things. Most of the words considered offensive wouldn’t be so in other cultural contexts. I don’t use most of the words for the sake of my testimony for Christ (you brought this up as well), however if it didn’t impact my testimony with the lost I would have no problem using them. The only offensive words I actually take a problem with are D*** and all its variations because it’s verbally condemning people/things to hell and as a follower of Jesus, I don’t want to say things that connotate that.
As far as words go, the only thing a Christian should be concerned about is his/her relationship with Jesus first and foremost, and his/her relationship with others (believers and non-believers). If your heart’s in the right place, the Spirit will direct you. It’s not about what words you say or don’t say, it’s about how whatever you do affects your relationship with God and others.
No bashing on me bro. =) Paul did use some strong language to emphasize certain points but he never used language that would be otherwise crude. I’ve used strong language before in my own witnessing but never crude language that would have killed the testimony of my witness.
Not that we haven’t had this same discussion like a thousand times before on this site… but I’ve gotta side with Jeremiah. I was shocked to read John claiming that “Christians can use the f-word and still glorify God. To say otherwise borders on legalism.” Seriously? I’d recommend doing a little Bible study on holiness (the thing without which no man will see God). It’s a sad indictment against believers today that holiness is regarded as legalism. I don’t swear for a number of reasons. Not only is it offensive to other people but it reveals that a person doesn’t have a sufficient vocabulary to choose a better word. Not only that, but as Jeremiah said, swearing is condemned in the Bible.
Sam – To state that Paul swore (even in the context of his own time) is simply not true. The example of him using the word “dung” is ridiculous on so many levels. To start with, that’s already a Greek to English translation of what Paul wrote. Secondly, just because there are multiple words for the same thing doesn’t mean that they can all be considered equal with the most derogatory version. I’d love to hear more about just what exactly Paul (and other Bible writers for that matter) were, in your opinion, actually saying in the Greek. We believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of the original scriptures… at least orthodox Christians do. That means that God inspired the writer’s choice of words… not just ideas or general themes. So what you’re saying is that God swore through Bible writers and that human translators had to water it down to make it culturally acceptable? If you’re pointing the finger at the writers… you’re pointing your finger at God. I’d be careful with that line of thought. So what exactly does the original Greek say? In context? Culturally and societally? And how do you know? And why couldn’t Paul have meant excrement or waste instead of sh*t? And in what cultural contexts is it okay to swear?
John – “I don’t swear because there are people that find it offensive and in the long run, can really hurt your testimony in Christ. Obviously, it also comes down to who you’re witnessing to. It seems like words like the s-word and the f-word are becoming more accepted and mainstream in society, so in the future there may actually be a need to use them to get a message across.” I just wanted you to re-read your statement. I can tell you unequivocally that there will never, ever be a time when you or anyone else will need to swear to get the gospel message across to anyone. It’s the Holy Spirit that draws men to repentance and I can tell you that in light of the scripture that promises us that God will give us the words to speak in the hour that we need them, those words will not be curse words.
I realize that chances are good that what I’ve written isn’t going to change most peoples minds. People who want to swear will swear. Human nature is so good at justifying ourselves. But look at it this way, what if any are the benefits to swearing? You sound crude. You sound uneducated. You sound uncaring and offensive. And you sound just like the world. At least you admit that it destroys your testimony… I guess that’s a start.
You can be holy and still use strong language. Again, as Sam pointed out, it’s all about context. If you were witnessing to a group of crusty punks who don’t have a problem with swearing, and who have gotten these words ingrained in their head that they don’t know how to express things any other way, wouldn’t you agree that it might take, for example, the word s*** to get across how ugly sin is?
Outside of that, you should present yourself as polite and acceptable, which is why I, and a lot of other Christians I think, refrain from swearing. But it’s all about the context, and that’s what I’m trying to get at. More often than not, you should NOT be swearing.
I did re-read the statement you would like me to re-read, and I stand by my philosophy. Here’s an example – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTc_FoELt8s
In that video, John Piper uses the word “crap” to get across how ugly he thinks the prosperity gospel is. Doesn’t “crap” have the exact same meaning as the s-word, and is therefore just as vulgar? The only difference is that society is ruled out one as vulgar, and has accepted the other one as ok. All I’m saying is that societal currents change. In the future, people may treat the s-word the same way we treat the word “crap” today. In that case, there may come a time when the s-word needs to be used to communicate a strong feeling.
Of course, until then, the majority of the time, people should NOT swear to present themselves as a polite and respectable man/woman of God.
Jeremiah – A piece of advice, I’m pretty sure that this is the same “John” that brings this topic up on every occasion possible. Full marks for his persistence, but his arguments will just run in pointless circles. Not sure about Sam, I think he means well, but just doesn’t know any better.
You’re definitely free to have your opinion on me, but I’m speaking from the heart on this matter. I’ve been thinking/praying about it for the past few months, just trying to understand what words are really about, and for me, I believe what I’ve said is the direction God has led me in.
Strong language and obscene/foul language are different. I would say that you don’t have to drop your standards to be relevant to a certain group of people. People said that he became all things to all people, but he qualified it by saying that he was never without the law of Christ. There are just certain things that you don’t do because it’s wrong. I’d be curious to watch you “witness” to a prostitute or a drunk or even a murderer. It’s flawed logic to think that a sinner will only understand sinner-type talk. Granted, I’m not advocating throwing words like substitutionary atonement or propitiation into the conversation, but seriously, if you think that there’s a single person on this earth that wouldn’t be able to understand you talking to them unless you swore… you’re not giving humanity enough credit. Even the crustiest punk doesn’t need you to stoop to his gutter language to be able to comprehend what you’re saying to him.
I’ll admit right off the bat that I love John Piper. And I’ll admit that I don’t think that crap is the same as sh*t. It’s just not. Like I mentioned before, just because there are words with similar meanings doesn’t automatically mean that they carry the same potential offence. Granted crap is closer to sh*t than poop, and admittedly word choice (such as Piper’s) is meant to convery fristration and disdain… and it did so effectively. I’m not arguing that point. That’s the beauty of choosing your words carefully, they can carry so much meaning. And we use strong words to do that intentionally some times… but there’s a limit to how far we’ll go as Christians. I could get up behind the pulpit this Sunday to preach and tell my church how terrible sin is… but do I have to swear to do so? Of course not. Would it be as effective if I didn’t swear? Definitely. Because I can choose words that convery strong meaning without crossin gthe line and being a lousy example. It takes discipline and restraint not to swear sometimes. Sure. But that’s what the Christian life is all about. We aren’t to be like the world allowing our flesh and fallen nature to run rough-shod over our testimony and character. There are simply no instances where you have to or need to swear. There just aren’t. Even a rudimentory command of the English language will suffice in providing more alternative word choices than you could ever need to express yourself.
I certainly don’t mean to come across as heavy-handed, and I hope that you don’t take anything that I say as a personal attack… even when I shared my opinion as to your persistan championing of this subject. It’s just that over the years I’ve watched so many Christians try as hard as they could to live as close to the edge between sinner and saint as they possibly could, and 9 time out of 10, they trip over the line and don’t make it back. One of the things that’s kept me saved is that I firmly believe in staying as close to Jesus as I can. I believe in the old addage that if you have to stop and think about whether or not something is a sin, it probably is… and if it’s not, it won’t hurt you to stear clear anyway.
No offense taken. I know I’ve wracked up a reputation for being contentious in the past, and that’s my own fault and I totally see why people would hold it against me. A quick side note: I was a teenager back then, so I didn’t know better. I hope you can forgive me for that.
It sounds like at the end of the day we’re both just arguing what our personal convictions are, and thus we’ve reached an impasse. I still hold that there are situations where swearing is OK, because they’re words that simply don’t mean anything apart from what their context dictates. If I were witnessing to a bunch of prostitutes who only understood things through the use of crass words, I could refrain from using them also, but why? They certainly don’t see crass words as taboo, so it might take using crass words to get the severity of something like sin across. I personally don’t see WHY it would still be an issue of sin or holiness given its context. Words alone simply don’t mean anything unless given meaning. Holiness isn’t about things as trivial as words, but it’s about honoring God, and worshiping Him and bearing the fruit of the Spirit. None of the fruit forbid strong language given that it’s appropriate given the circumstance.
So that’s my conviction, and we could argue this into eternity I guess, but more importantly we want to shift our gaze to Christ – I’m sure we can both agree on that.
Well I had a long reply typed out but something glitched when I tried to post it and now it’s gone.
I think we’ve ultimately reached an impasse because we’re just arguing what our personal convictions are and aren’t going to convince each other otherwise. So I’ll leave it there and just say, let’s shift our focus to Christ.
No offense taken. I know I’ve wracked up a reputation being contentious here in the past, and it’s certainly fair for you to hold it against me. Side note though: I was a teenager back then, and I didn’t know any better. I hope you can forgive me for that.
And forgive my spelling… definitely not one of my strong points. :-)
I like this album, this artist, and I even like the song in question. All spiritual arguements aside, the f-bomb, and then the repeating of said bomb almost 20 times, was just kinda dumb. Didnt really work with the song, the overall feel of his music, and it didnt seem worth putting his image on the line for. Cursing isnt excusive to secular artists, but at the very base argument, we can at least it takes alot more effort NOT to cuss in a song. And Sufjan has always been known for being a pretty smart lyricist….
It all just seemed very out of character, and not in a good way. Hope he got that out of system….
I agree with you Ian and that was my main problem. I was basically saddened that Sufjan would go as low as putting the f word in that song. I pray it’s something he doesn’t ever repeat. The world in general are like vultures and they look at us believers for something they can call us out on and then label us as hypocrites. I don’t wish for any of our testimonies to be flawed but to be doctrinally sound so that the world can’t rip and tear them apart.